EP 28: Fallibility on Display

Tucker: Welcome to THRIVERS: Nonprofit Leadership for the Next Normal. I’m your host, Tucker Wannamaker the CEO of THRIVE IMPACT. Our mission is to solve nonprofit leader burnout and to right the injustices happening against nonprofits. We believe that burnout is the enemy of creating positive change, and we want to connect you with impactful mission-driven leaders and ideas.
So that you can learn to thrive as a human being, as a leader, as a person in today’s nonprofit landscape, and I’m with my co-host as usual, Sarah Fanslau, our Chief of Impact. Sarah, it is great to be back on the podcast with you after a one-week reprieve.
Sarah: You too. Good to be back.
Tucker: It’s good to be back.
And I’m appreciating our last podcast. And if, for those of you who haven’t listened to the last one, it was called The Role of Dissent in a Learning Organization. And, we really went through quite a bit. Some behaviors that reinforce learning. And we went through six different ones that you can do based out of the work of Amy Edmondson and also the exchange approach methodology. And we dove deep into a couple, and one of which was around inviting voices and particularly risk-taking contributions. And how do you bring dissent in and honor that and appreciate that? And notice what that might be for your organization. So anyway, I was just appreciating that last conversation. It was so rich. So if you haven’t listened to that one, go check it out. because it actually goes through the six different types of behaviors that you can do.
That reinforce learning, but we wanted to actually go a little deeper into another one of them because there’s so rich. Amy’s work in the work from XCHANGE and what we’ve been learning ourselves through this of our own journey. There’s just so much richness here that I don’t know if there’s… It’s not like you’re gonna hear it one time and then figure it out.
Like this is practice. This is ongoing learning and unlearning of old ways that either our brain is telling us or our bodies are telling us, that we’re learning how to shift into, so anyway.
Sarah: It requires serious living into. For sure.
Tucker: Yeah. Which is all that we can ask of each other.
It’s our old joke. A fun joke that we have in THRIVE which is, “It’s all learning, right? Is it all learning? Maybe it’s all learning. It’s all learning.” Like a way of keeping it light, because we know how heavy learning feels sometimes. Because sometimes learning feels awkward.
It’s if anybody’s ever learned anything new, you’re rarely ever gonna get it perfect. And even after you’ve learned it. I’ve been a facilitator for forever and I’m still learning. And that’s not something new. I’ve been doing that… I definitely have my 10,000 hours in facilitation, and yet I still see the areas of I can really grow there and I can really learn.
It just sometimes hits this space with us. That it can feel clunky or awkward. So today we wanted to. Really focus in on one of the behaviors. So again, we’re not gonna go through all the behaviors today. That’s for that last podcast. So I recommend going back to that, The Role of Dissent. We actually went through all six of them, but this one in particular today we’d like to hop into the one that was: Displaying and Owning my Fallibility. Displaying and owning my fallibility. Sarah just really want to bring your voice in here because this is such a big topic and I even feel like right now I feel it myself. Breathe Tucker. Breathe. But why is this so important? Why is this behavior such a real and important behavior to learn how to do?
Sarah: Yeah, I think we could both talk about this one endlessly, which is why we were like we need to really dig in here.
Ultimately displaying fallibility tells other people around you that you don’t know it all. And if you don’t know it all, then maybe they don’t, and that’s okay. And maybe you can all learn together. And I think it’s the first. One of the first behaviors, Amy lists and I think it’s so important because if we are not humble and not open to learning and open to other perspectives, I don’t know if the rest matters.
Ultimately, in some ways. And I think displaying fallibility says to other people, “You know what, it’s okay to make mistakes and still show up here.” And that’s at the base of what it takes to learn ultimately. So that’s why for me, I think it’s so important. But what about you?
Tucker: Yeah, you used the word humble and I’m trying to think of the word. But there’s a space of displaying and owning your own fallibility that’s just displaying it’s like an honesty. It’s a space of being in integrity to yourself as a human. It’s being in a… I think somebody shared something about humility, it was like being right-sized of sorts.
If we think about it, similar to what we shared last time, and we mentioned a lot about Peter Senge and his work around learning organizations and the statement that he’s used he used in this video that was in the show notes from last time as well, that he was talking about the prevailing system of management is destroying people because the prevailing system of management is about control.
And a particular type of control, like consolidating the consolidation of control. And we see this in top-down leadership structures. We see this in school with, our teachers. As you said, there’s not a whole lot of difference between the teacher and the student from our, traditional style of teaching and learning.
There’s not a whole lot of difference between the teacher and the student and the boss and the subordinate. We quickly learned that school was… We already knew how to learn before school, but then we went into school and realized that school is not as much about learning, it’s much more about performance for somebody else’s approval.
But then as we’ve kept going into that space, and I even had literally a conversation with a wonderful ED in DC this morning talking about this space of perfectionism and that’s been this water we’ve been swimming in. Because it’s been about performance, which means I need to be perfect or else.
I’ll get slapped, I’ll get in trouble, I’ll get whatever it might be, versus realizing that’s actually not even reality in the first place.
Sarah: Wow. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think also, and Amy Edmondson points this out in her research when we are in difficult or critical conversations. Many of us default to going into reactivity.
And if you’ve listened to our podcast before, you know what that is. You’re going into that safety part of your brain where you’re thinking I’ve gotta protect myself. I’m in danger here. It’s literally a biological and physiological response. We have to danger, but we’re going there in difficult conversations and in those spaces, our goal is to defend and control.
And research shows that if we are willing to be open and wrong, that’s a leading indicator of teams that can navigate change. If we are willing to, not in conversations where we feel, oh shit, I might be called out on my stuff to control or defend and instead can invite that, “You know what, I was wrong. Let’s learn.” That’s an environment where teams can change and learn.
Tucker: Yeah. And change and learn into the type of teams that we, I’m guessing if you’re a listener of this podcast, want to be a part of.
Sarah: Right. But imagine, and Tucker I’m gonna ask you, like to sit in that space of being the leader in that difficult conversation.
Having to admit that you are wrong. What does that bring up for you? How do we do that? It’s literally against our biology to do that. It’s literally against… So what do we do? How do we do it? It’s easy to say, hard to do. What does that look like?
Tucker: We’ve had some scenarios lately, I’ll share about mine too, but we’ve also had some scenarios lately with some nonprofit leaders who are potentially on the backside of realizing their fallibility because they didn’t, they weren’t like necessarily acknowledging it or even asking around where they can improve, or there’s some kind of blinder on, and now they’re dealing with the backend of that. And now we’re creating some healing, which is good.
I think that’s the spaces that we really shine in is creating spaces of healing for teams. Because this is trauma for people. As you were just talking about this, performance orientation can be really traumatic for all of us, and it sends us into our brainstem and we want to fight flight or freeze and that’s all that sends… That’s trauma for us. Yeah, totally. So it’s been interesting for me to see. The backend of that and how do we help leaders, including ourselves, including myself, go into that space ahead of time, like proactively displaying, owning that, what is that proactive nature.
Even this ED I talked to today, she’s been there for, at this organization for actually only about eight months I think. And at the six month mark, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard of this before, but she did a 360 degree leadership assessment at six months of being in the organization.
Now I’ve heard of 360s obviously, because we’ve done them before. And we do them. And six months in. That was proactive. Like where is she? What proactive learning and what courage it took to do that. I mean she basically in a sense, by doing a 360… So if you don’t know what a 360 degree value evaluation or a leadership assessment is, basically it’s where you send out a anonymous survey to your team, to your board, to typically like close colleagues or people who know you well, who have seen you in your leadership.
And you get, depending upon the type, we’ve done ones through Leadership Circle, which is one we totally recommend and can help you with that if you ever want to do that. But it’s very illuminating to say the least. And it lets people, it lets people in the spirit of kindness and support, give you feedback in an anonymous way for you to be able to reflect on and notice. Where you can grow and change. And it’s not always negative per se, or it’s not always learning oriented in terms of what you need to change. It’s also things that have been the best of you. It’s not just this like big vat of negative nellie’s on your assessment.
But but it takes a lot of courage to do those. They’re tough. Sarah, you’ve done one before.
Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah, I’ve done a few.
Tucker: How does that feel? You were asking that earlier, what does that feel in your body when you’re like I gotta read this assessment.
Sarah: Nauseous. In one word nauseous. Yeah, it’s really tough. It’s really tough. But I’m curious so what did this executive director, like what was the outcome of it? She got the pieces back and curious what she learned and how she was taking that back into the team in support of fallibility if at all.
Tucker: I think she just did it so she was still… I think no, she didn’t just do it because she’s been there for eight months. We didn’t quite go into the details of that because we were talking about something else. I just thought it was really fascinating. That she did that at six months in as an ED.
I was like, what is the rhythm? If we’re talking about displaying and owning my fallibility there’s a in the moment type of display, and we even have some sentence starters that are like, “Here’s how I’ve contributed to, and or caused this situation,” or, “I don’t like how I handled that situation,” or “I was wrong…”
Literally just, “I was wrong…” So there’s like the displaying and owning your fallibility in the moment or just after whatever that moment might have been. There’s also this proactive displaying and owning, and that may be the more owning of the fallibility of saying, I know I’m fallible and that’s okay.
How might I get feedback that helps me to learn and grow as a leader, as the type of leader that I ultimately want to be?
Sarah: Yeah, for sure. And I think, So for me, part of being able to, I think the proactive displaying fallibility is so important, but the question is like, what are the spaces that create that?
How can we get people to do that proactively so that when the situation feels less safe, they’ve almost already done it? You’ve already put in a rep or two, so you’re like, “It’s okay.” And so yesterday actually at THRIVE IMPACT, we had what a strategy conversation. We have one each quarter, and we talked about what has been the best of us, our accomplishments, and then we talked about some of our disappointments.
And I actually forget what section it was in. It was in disappointments. It was in disappointments.
Tucker: It was, yeah. You’re the last one to share at the end of disappointments.
Sarah: Yeah. And I think I said, “Y’all are better at this than me, but I’m not, I’m just…” We have a core value at THRIVE of excellence, which is great.
I think we all. It’s a really strong shared value. It came up a lot yesterday. And I think what I said was like, “I have leaned too far into excellence at some points in our work because of fear, that we’re not gonna get it right or we’re gonna do it wrong, or people are not gonna like it.And that has pushed me to, Dot every I five times and cross every T fifteen, so that there’s no way anyone could say anything other than this is the best thing ever.”
And I think I just shared that with the team because it’s something I’m still learning into, but what was possible about that space was like, it wasn’t a space of, it would’ve been hard for me to say that in a group of people I didn’t trust.
Ultimately. I think as we talk about proactive fallibility part of what comes along with it for me are these spaces where folks can be vulnerable and be in a team with other people who feel like they have their back enough, that they can share something that, that’s tough to share.
Tucker: Yeah. Sarah, I want to, if you’re open, I want to dig into that one a little bit. You are so good at what you do, and it’s truly a joy and honor to work with you. And you do bring excellence. And I’m wondering from your perspective, it’s like the, what’s made possible, but the opposite side, like what happened because of you, for you, for the team?
What was made possible, but in the not so helpful set, why was that particular share for you a displaying of fallibility? Because what were the things that were actually underneath the surface that actually created a space, that hurt or that brought not what you wanted? What was underneath that?
Sarah: I think there are two things. One, is that… And this has been true for me across workplaces. I just work a lot and hard and fast and it creates burnout. I almost create my own conditions of burnout because I’m working so hard and so fast that it’s one, it’s tough for me. And then two, it can be tough for folks around me to keep up or to do, as much which isn’t necessarily the case at THRIVE, but it’s been the case at other places. It almost creates an unattainable standard for others.
That then have to perform to a bar that they haven’t set themselves. If I’ve set my own bar, one thing, still maybe not helpful but I set it, if I’m setting a bar for somebody else, different story. So I think it’s created those conditions where it’s just too much.
And ultimately I get to a place where I’m like, it’s too much. And it’s so certainly creating the conditions of burnout is one piece. And then two, I think just more philosophically, and this is, clearly what we’re working to help others learn. I just I’m not sure.
Ultimately, you do a lot of work upfront. And give it a over to people, maybe for less feedback, but what if, using the analogy of the skateboard, you did less work and got more feedback and then just improved it. Ultimately, I think the second also then provides the opportunity for more voice, which is we know then makes people more bought into the product.
So There’s a real, you’re maybe wasting time and energy, but you’re also wasting like that currency of buy-in in some ways.
Tucker: Ooh, yeah. Ooh, that’s really good.
That’s the currency of buy-in. I know we’ve talked about this. You have a simple way of approach. You could either do strategy and then buy in afterward. Or you can do buy-in before, then that leads to a better strategy. And it sounds like what was happening with this particular fear that drove or has driven you at times is stolen from co-creation in a sense, right?
It’s interesting, it’s interesting, we have these five core values, Co-Creation, Excellence, Sustainability, Empathy, and Playfulness. And it’s so interesting because I’m seeing tensions between values. It’s interesting to see that. Like when excellence has now gone beyond and has actually taken away from co-creation and sustainability for you personally.
It’s like how do these values stay in balance with one another? I mean you definitely hold that value of excellence so well in our organization. Part of your share yesterday, which was, it felt vulnerable and I really honor you and appreciate you for sharing that with our team and with me, is you are honoring the values that we have.
By displaying your own fallibility of saying, “I’ve leaned a little out of balance into this one. At the expense of the other ones.” In a sense.
Sarah: Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I think. Part of what we were talking about when we were prepping for this podcast was the like, and I think this is part of my challenge, is how do you lean into this idea of fallibility and skateboard in a context where that’s not valued?
And like within our organization at THRIVE, those are our values and so we can. We know what’s important for ourselves. And we hold those and we can hold each other accountable. But oftentimes we’re going into organizations that are top-down, that are performance not learning-based, that have big-time cultures of censure.
And like what? And this is where I struggle, right? It’s not hard to live our values inside of our own walls. It’s hard to live them when you’re going into somebody else’s house that doesn’t hold them. And that’s the tough part I think.
Tucker: Yeah. That’s where I’m curious if you’re a nonprofit leader and you are sitting in a situation and by leader, I mean anybody in the organization.
So whether you’re an ED or a director or a VP or entry-level or whatever you might be, you’re a leader. That’s part of our philosophy is around leadership. And if you’re in a space where it does feel performative in a negative way. In a, there is censure if you, that you don’t feel the safety to share when you’ve made mistakes.
What do you do about that? And now part of it’s hard to determine, like, how do you know if that fear is just you? And how do you know if that fear is because it actually is an external force on you? And I think that’s just an important thing to reflect on. Because I think even you, Sarah…
I believe we do have a culture of learning that we’re continuing to learn how to have. And even then it was tough for you to bring… Because that’s tough. Because this is tough to display our fallibility, even if we’re in a culture that welcomes that. So anyway, just a reflection on, how much of it is you as an individual, and how much of it is the organization. But if you are in an organization that has core values that they don’t live into or feels to go back to Peter Senge, they use data and reporting as a way of controlling you and motivating you through fear versus letting your own internal motivation around learning to drive. How do you display your, and own your fallibility or do you even is that even a thing that you should do?
Sarah: I think it’s such a great question. And actually, I think, Tucker, I’ve definitely learned from you here.
I’m thinking back to a meeting we had recently between a board was there and the CEO and staff and there’s some tension there. And there was a question from a board member and I immediately wanted to have an answer. And I think you said, “That’s a great question. Let’s put it up on our board here and we’ll answer it in our process.”
And so I think there’s two things there. One is that creating a process that invites questions. But not questions that individuals necessarily have to have the answer to in the minute, like we’re on the hot seat. But creating spaces of questions that allow for more than one voice to provide an answer and then saying, “That’s a good question,” and stopping there.
That’s a good question. We’re gonna go, we’re gonna go and invite the voices to answer it and we’ll get back to you. Thank you for that question. And actually really honoring the question. I think some people can feel inauthentic sometimes. Where they are like “Thanks for the question,” but actually it’s, “You know what, thanks for that question.”
But that is, displaying fallibility and being open to learning. That’s being open to saying, you know what? That is a good question. Maybe we should figure that out, instead of feeling like I don’t know the answer,
Tucker: Yeah. And I think, wasn’t the question, something like, “Why hasn’t this been done yet?” Or it was a pointed question, right?
Sarah: It was pointed, you’re right.
Tucker: There is something behind that question for sure.
Sarah: Yeah. It was not very generous. Yeah. But if we treat all questions as questions and allow them space, like instead of it becoming a cycle of reactivity, it can become a cycle of creativity where we honestly explore that answer. And the intention was for it to be generative.
Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like you’re, even though you might feel like it, that there is not generous intent, let’s give people the benefit of the doubt.
So part of that is to give benefit of the doubt. The other part of that is give pause, give space between questions and answers. You don’t have to answer right now. You can say, “You know what, that’s a great question.” And if you are feeling like you don’t have an answer, and frankly, even if you do are feeling like you do have an answer, it may still be valuable to still pause.
And create space in between, the stimulus and your own response to it.
Sarah: Viktor Frankl there, right? Yeah.
Tucker: Good old Viktor Frankl. Exactly, yes. You got it. The other thing too, I’m noticing is when you do know you’re wrong. Maybe wrong is too hard, when you do know you made a mistake or whatever mistake means.
Or you do know that…. I’ve shared this recently, I’ve realized one of the things that we are really growing in and learning in right now in THRIVE is our culture of revenue. And I realized a couple of months ago that I was and I know this cognitively, but I didn’t realize it until I had done the learning deeper in my own body, literally, of how much I had been creating a culture of isolation around revenue. I had isolated myself and I had… And a lot of it for me was also based in fear. What I actually started realizing is that if I don’t, I have to figure this out. And if I don’t figure this out, then people are gonna leave.
I realized it was like this deep seeded fear of loneliness that I actually had. Which of course then I had this fear and then what was then happening from that was I was creating conditions of loneliness that were then feeding into the fear, and it was this like a terrible downward spiral.
And so in those moments where you’ve noticed that you’ve contributed to, perhaps the negative of a situation or you didn’t handle a situation well, And you’re in a culture that does that, or that has, can be a little more punitive. What do you do there? What do you do?
Sarah: Great question! Yeah, what do you do? Honestly, the first thing that came to my mind is the importance of having, a mentor or community that can help you process. If there’s nobody inside of the organization that you feel has your back… I think it’s just you’ve gotta have somebody or multiple people who have your back, who you can process with, like our THRIVERS community. I think the second, before you get into the space is oftentimes people are in this space, and you see this in the research from the leadership circle assessment. That self-awareness is one of the most overrated leadership competencies by leaders in the bottom 10%. So some of the leaders who have the most room for growth are over-assessing themselves most frequently in terms of self-awareness.
They think they’re more self-aware than they are. And so I think one of the big things is that leaders are getting into situations because they’re challenged with their own self-awareness. And so one of the things. I think is super valuable is having that reflective mirror back to you both through assessments, but also ideally through community and support people who can say to you, “You know what? I gotta show this to you.” I’m not sure you see it in a safe place where people can process and learn.
Tucker: I love what you’re talking about, like having a community around you, having a safe space. I even think about it. People like Amy Alanes and Lisa Simms Booth, who have been a part of our THRIVER community for a while.
And I remember both of them, in fact, others have shared this too, that having a space to practice your voice she said, or both of them have said, it has helped really generate and build up confidence to be able to live into my own values. Which is really powerful. So I really want to appreciate what you’re sharing there.
Around the power of having community and an actual safe space if you don’t have a safe space to be able to process through some of this and build up your own, confidence and clarity and things like that. And I was also thinking too, you’re in that space, right? I feel like this happens to me with my kids all the time too, but you realize I shouldn’t have acted that way.
Or I contributed to this situation.
And how do you do that? How do you do that? Which I think is one of the hardest ones. And it’s helpful to do the proactivity, love that idea. It’s helpful to have that community. And at the end of the day too, sometimes you’re wrong. And it’s okay that you’re wrong. And it’s okay for us to share when we were the contribution to that. Wrong for sure and without a but. This is one of the things I try to teach my kids and I’m trying to learn into it. Because there are sometimes where I just don’t do it. Where I’m like, “Yeah, I was wrong, but if you would just…” It’s that old, that quote that, we were talking about earlier of, “If I’m not the problem, there is no solution.” Which like makes me squirm even thinking about it, but it’s this like deep form of extreme ownership. That can many times feel tough to share but can also disarm a situation. Because when we’re in cycles of reactivity with each other in performative-oriented cultures like that are negative and toxic it’s all a bunch of reactivity. And trying to one-up each other, or it’s… I was in a dog-eat-dog kind of culture and a nonprofit before because the culture was this, hyper-competitiveness, which was not healthy. And it was this performative-oriented culture.
And, but it’s, we’re always on the defense and or the attack, right? It’s like we’re either attacking or defending or both. These are cycles of reactivity. And how do we disarm that situation? By pulling back and sharing. Like, “I don’t like how I handled myself in that situation, and I’m sorry.”
Sarah: It’s so hard to do that in a culture that is punitive. But ultimately it has to start with somebody.
Tucker: Somebody’s gotta break the cycle of reactivity.
Sarah: Someone has to break it. Yeah, exactly. As you were talking, I was thinking, yeah, about a nonprofit experience I had where it’s almost like.
If it’s a punitive culture, then you try to catch each other making mistakes. Really. That’s what you try to do, because then if you’ve made a mistake, it’s not so bad if I did. And yours was bigger… Like ultimately who’s done worse is the question we’re asking.
And so it’s it’s really easy to get into that cycle and unless somebody’s willing to stop it, I just don’t know. I don’t know how it does stop. Yeah, and ultimately, at one recent job I had, I really left because I felt super alone. At I didn’t have any support, from the leadership of the organization.
And they were asking me to go out and do big things be on the cliff of responsibility, in a punitive fear-based culture. Without anyone there with me. And I was like, “You know what? Why would I do this? This is not worth it. I’ll stand on that cliff if you’re with me and if there’s a reason, but I’m not gonna do it by myself and for no reason.”
Like just no.
Tucker: Yeah. I feel like we’ve really gone deep into this. Displaying and owning my fallibility and our fallibility. And I think this is one that we, that takes practice. And I don’t think we can underestimate the power of it. I don’t think we can underestimate… Sorry.
I don’t think we can overestimate the power. We typically underestimate the power of it, mainly because we’re afraid. I know I’m afraid. I’m afraid in doing that. And yet I know that when I’ve leaned into that it’s been better for me and ultimately the team too, and sharing what I’m learning from that and where it is that I want to grow and learn from.
Sarah: Yeah. Ultimately, I think this is part of the work we’re starting to explore that’s at our center, but it’s what, it’s hard to do that in workplaces that don’t value it.
And part of why I’m here at THRIVE is because I saw you were trying to create something different. And I think now we have the opportunity to create lots of something different. And that change is gonna take time, but ultimately, like why would we want to work, and spend most of our lives and our days and our hours in places where we feel attacked and that we don’t belong?
I don’t think we do. I don’t think we do. So the stakes couldn’t be higher ultimately.
Tucker: For this work. Yeah. Thank you all for listening into this podcast. Again, if you want to listen in to all six of the behaviors that reinforce learning, check out the last podcast around the role of descent.
We actually talk about each one, and then we go deeper into another one of the specific ones. Sarah mentioned the skateboard multiple times. We actually have a podcast on that. It’s a, it’s really around an approach to learning and creating V1s, V2s, V3s, instead of trying to be perfect, is actually learn by doing first.
So there’s a podcast on that about skateboards earlier on as well. If you want to check that one out. We can also put those in the show notes so that you have easy access to those links. But otherwise, just encourage you all out there. Breathe deeply. Use breath work and mindfulness practices to be able to go into spaces whenever you know that, just do this in general, but especially when you’re in this space where you feel what we’ve talked about and even feel talking about it.
Breathe deeply. Yeah, do that because it’ll help you to go into that space of being able to own your own fallibility and it’s okay that you’re not perfect. And I encourage you all to take those courageous steps. To do that and then also find the right place for you to be as a leader out in the world.
Any last words, Sarah?
Sarah: I think you captured it.
Tucker: Awesome. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you on the next THRIVERS: Nonprofit Leadership for the Next Normal. Bye, everyone.