Nonprofits exist to create positive impact in their communities and in the world around them. There’s no shortage of ways to increase and improve that impact. Revenue, storytelling, programs, and more all play a significant role.
The biggest factor though is also the most overlooked: leadership development. Why doesn’t it get prioritized? Is it a lack of resources or funding? Why do most “leadership” programs miss the mark? Better yet, why do they only focus on the people at the top of the organization?
In this episode, Sarah and Tucker dive into the research around the impact of nonprofit leadership development (or lack thereof) and what most programs get wrong when it comes to building capacity this way.
Sarah: Hey there, and welcome to THRIVERS: Nonprofit Leadership for the Next Normal. I'm your host, Sarah Fanslau, the Chief Impact Officer of THRIVE IMPACT, and our mission is to solve nonprofit leader burnout.
Burnout is the enemy of creating positive change, and we wanna connect you with impactful, mission-driven leaders as well as tools so that you can learn to thrive in today's nonprofit landscape. I'm joined today as usual by Tucker Wannamaker, CEO of THRIVE IMPACT. Hey, Tucker.
Tucker: Hey, it's good to be here with you, Sarah.
Sarah: Hey, you too. So today we're gonna talk about conscious leadership, right?
Tucker: Yeah. And making the case for leadership development within nonprofits.
Sarah: Yeah, this is such an interesting topic.
For those of you out there, I am super excited to be embarking on a new master's program in evaluation and applied research, going deeper into my research roots. And one of the awesome things I've been able to do is spend some time digging around the background of the problem that we are solving here at THRIVE IMPACT and gain more research and data to support our cause.
And I found some really interesting stuff and, Tucker, I wanted to share some of it with you and get your thoughts. I know you have a ton of research to share as well, but you know, just starting with the role of nonprofits, oftentimes I think we come in and just assume everyone is on the page about why nonprofits matter in the first place.
And the truth is that that's not true. A lot of folks don't really know. And there's tons of great research out there. I have a few studies that I just wanted to share briefly with folks. One is that, you know, there's been some really interesting research in the role of nonprofits actually helping to reduce violence.
So when there's community based nonprofits in certain areas, literally homicide rates are dropping. Secondly, nonprofits are promoting health and wellbeing. So we're literally again seeing the reduction of obesity as it relates to the support of nonprofits filling the health gap that exists in this country.
And then the final one that I love is really around trust. You know, right now in our country, and in our world quite frankly, there's such an issue of trust between people and between people and institutions. And there's a 2020 study from the BBB Wise Giving Alliance that came to the conclusion that US adults trust charities more than any other institution, including the church and including other government organizations, which for me was just mind blowing, right? People trust nonprofits more than any other institution in this country. It's crazy.
Tucker: Oh, that's so interesting. Well, and I know too, economically speaking, the nonprofit sector is at least 10% of the workforce if I'm not mistaken, correct? I think that comes out of Independent Center, or Independent Sector I should say.
Basically nonprofits are an incredibly important undergirding of our entire communities. Both from an impact perspective, but also from an economic perspective. There are a lot of jobs inside of nonprofit work. There's a significant role that nonprofits play.
Sarah: Yeah, you're totally right. And one study I recently found showed that between 2007 and 2016, nonprofit employment grew at nearly three times the rate of for-profit employment. So when you actually just think about the growth of the sectors, the nonprofit sector is really growing in terms of its share of the population that it employs.
So you're right, it's a huge—it's not just about the impact it has on the communities—but it's a huge driver of employment and therefore economic value in our country.
Tucker: Well, this is where nonprofits play such a significant role in our communities around impact, around economy, just straight up jobs. I mean, so many different factors, kind of the undergirding of our communities.
But what's really going on? What's really happening underneath the surface when we look at the nonprofit landscape? What is our case that we're trying to make here today around leadership?
Sarah: Definitely. Well, for me, if it starts with the fact that while nonprofits are really important, the sectors face some really significant and chronic challenges, which COVID has in many ways made worse.
In 2020, the Council of Nonprofits found that 70% of nonprofit saw decrease in funds, and less than 25% of folks who were responding to the survey had more than six months of cash reserve. So that's just telling us that there's a lot of financial instability in the sector, which in some ways COVID exacerbated or made worse.
I think the other thing that we know and has gotten worse in the pandemic again, is that as folks are trying to compete for employees, we've seen The Great Resignation and then a real challenge with hiring that the nonprofits are unable to compete in terms of salary. Four out of five nonprofits are unable to meet salary competition, which means that bringing in talent is really tough.
Sarah: Yeah, I was shocked by that statistic. And then finally, I think the other thing that adds to this is that there's systemic inequality in the nonprofit sector, and we've talked about this before. 72% of nonprofits are women led. 72%! And yet the gender pay gap exists in the nonprofit sector.
And so you think about staying in the sector for a long time as a woman where you're being paid less, your 401k isn't as much as it would be if you were in the private sector, you can't get your retirement ready. And you think it creates a disincentive for folks to stay in those jobs. There's just a lot of instability in the sector financially, in terms of being able to offer benefits, and then the other thing that I found really interesting, Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Tucker: No, I liked where you were going. You keep going, you're riffing. It's great.
Sarah: I was just gonna say that beyond financial instability and in many cases tied to it, is the challenge of nonprofit leadership, which is really what we're here to discuss. Nonprofits are financially unstable, they're lacking reserves, they can't compete on salary, and guess what? Also, many of them struggle to offer the training and the leadership development that folks need in order to be the leaders their nonprofits need from them.
I think something like 73% of nonprofit leaders indicated they don't have the resources they need to develop their own leadership, and that the lack of that came second to only salary in terms of challenges related to retention.
So people are saying number one, I'm not making enough money, but number two, I don't have opportunities to grow here. And that's impacting the decision of folks to stay. So those are all really significant.
Tucker: Well, those are significant too, because I'm thinking there are, I've thought about this myself having been in many nonprofits that, as a part of this Great Resignation, sometimes that's money, but many times that's a lack of meaning or a lack of value, or a lack of a great culture, or ways to grow.
I know people who have plenty of money and in fact, I'm thinking of a dear friend of mine who's actually a lawyer as an example, and they were continuing to bump up their pay. And he's like, “No, no, no, no. Please don't.”
Because he didn't want to have more of the golden handcuffs. He wanted to have a culture of learning. He wanted to have a culture where there was space for his life. He wanted to grow and go deeper. And so I'm thinking about what are these other currencies involved that I'm not sure how the revenue component is going to be addressed necessarily.
However, what are some of the other components as well? Although it's interesting in our own data that we'll share a little bit, that we notice that when people have and are invested in from a leadership development perspective, their revenue actually goes up.
Sarah: Well, exactly. That's the thing here, is that it's not a “nice to have”.
So the fact that the lack of opportunities is coming second only in relation to salary is a really good indicator. Nonprofit salaries are not the same as for-profit, so I think it makes sense that for nonprofit leaders, salary comes first and opportunities to grow come second. Maybe once they're at parity with the private sector, that will shift.
But the reality is that what we've seen and the data that we have is that the investment in leadership, and particularly the inner work of leadership, which we'll talk about in a minute, is really strongly correlated with a business’ bottom line. The more impactful and effective a leader can be, the better off their business is gonna be, whether they're for-profit or nonprofit. Investing is not just a great thing for the individual, but quite frankly, it's an investment for the organization.
Tucker: Well, you spoke to some of the things of what's going on and also too, this is a frame that we use a lot, but is the fact that the day and age that we're in, hence why things like The Great Resignation have been going on, or things like “quiet quitting” as an example. We're in a time of significant uncertainty and complexity in general. This comes from Eric Teller, who's the former head of Google X, and from Thomas Friedman's book, Thank You for Being Late. The speed of change and the complexity of that change has been happening at a more exponential rate.
Yet our ability to adapt to that as humans has been a lot more linear. We do this in our workshops all the time, and I say, “How many of you nonprofit leaders have experienced that exact feeling? Which is you're looking around you at the speed and the complexity of change happening around you, and you're not sure how to adapt.”
Pretty much everybody raises their hand, including me by the way, sometimes I raise my hand too. And what happens in ourselves many times when that's happening is that the demands on us are exceeding the resources available to us.
And by the way, I don't think it's always… Resources are not always money, although that is a part as we're talking about. But there are other forms of currency. There are other resources available to us. We know based on Dr. Daniel Friedland's work from Leading Well From Within, he was a neuroscientist. He was a dear mentor of mine. He said, “When demands exceed resources, reactivity, burnout, and turnover results.”
And that's what happens in nonprofits. Especially in small, community-based and BIPOC-led nonprofits.
Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. The challenges that are happening at the sector level are exacerbated in these smaller organizations who even have larger challenges related to revenue.
Bridgespan and Echoing Green did a really great report looking at how small, BIPOC-led organizations are doing, and they found—and just the disparities in funding—and they found that revenues for black-led nonprofits are 24% smaller than for white-led nonprofits, which is just crazy, right?
And the reality is that leadership development and training in that context then becomes even harder. Some research found that leadership development for small, community-based nonprofits is even further less invested in because of revenue challenges than other nonprofits. And if they have access to anything, it's kind of a one-off workshop there, or a one-off workshop here, rather than deeply integrated work that really helps to drive change.
So it's both about the type of leadership development that folks go through, but also the duration and intensity as we know, and is part of the approach that we take with folks.
Tucker: Yeah, and yet, I'm thinking about our work right now with the Pikes Peak Community Foundation as an example.
We did a whole lot of interviews ahead of time with CEOs and the EDs of these small, community-based nonprofits that we're working with the Community Foundation with around our THRIVER program. It was so fascinating when—I remember talking with Scott that one time as an example—when they were talking about this as leadership development just for them, or when it was implied that that was almost what it was.
And then we said, “No, this is actually for your whole staff. Your whole staff has access to this.”
I mean, man, you could tell the energy just popped on. It was like, “Oh really? My whole team? Because I don't have the resources, but I want my whole… We all need this.”
Sarah: Yeah, we found that ourselves. You're totally right. Everybody said, “Oh, professional development is so important and I don't have the money to pay for it. So does this mean that I can help my staff grow?” You're right. You're totally right, Tucker.
Tucker: But Sarah, if I'm a funder, this is what I keep thinking about, we know based on both Dr. Daniel Friedland's work and a lot of the studies that you're talking about, there's a great study from Leadership Circle, which did a study on, I think it was 68,000 different Leadership 360 Circle Assessments. And it showed that people who are in reactivity oriented mindsets—which typically when they're in that state for a long time, burnout and turnover are happening—that it completely debilitates and undercuts philanthropic investments in nonprofit programs.
Sarah: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Tucker: And that burnout debilitates not only the leader, but it also erodes the culture. And ultimately, one of the things that we say, as you said earlier, burnout is the enemy of creating positive change.
Sarah: You can't do it.
Tucker: Yeah, exactly. Like if I'm a funder, or if I'm somebody who is philanthropically giving to support impact, what should I be thinking about around this particular issue?
Sarah: Yeah, there's some great new work on this, but one of the things that we found is that less than 1% of foundation dollars are going to leadership development.
And so the first thing I think for funders is they need to fund this work. They need to fund the work for nonprofits to provide capacity building and professional development to their staff. And so part of it is just about re-looking at priorities when it comes to foundation dollars.
Oftentimes, foundations are giving to programs, right? They're saying, “Go achieve this impact and do this thing with these people outside of the organization,” without wanting to think about or pay attention to what it takes inside, internally for the people to execute on that work. And I mean, I know you know too, I've been in many a nonprofit and a funder has said, “Oh, I'm not gonna pay for staff dollars.”
Straight up. “I'm not gonna pay for staff dollars.” Or, “The overhead associated with this grant proposal has to look like this.” And that really undercuts the nonprofit’s ability to deliver on the work with excellence, while taking care of and supporting their staff.
Tucker: Well, which actually gets to an interesting point that I kinda wanna riff with you on here, is there's also some stats around… When we're talking about leadership development, what are we really talking about?
Because there's certainly some… I think if a funder or people who are investing in nonprofits are not investing in the leaders—not just the issue, but the leaders—in some way, it's ultimately a bad investment. It's reducing impact. It's reducing their ability to grow revenue.
But not all leadership development is the same.
Sarah: No. It's not created equal.
Tucker: It's not created equal. And you were just saying that. I empathize with somebody who's potentially philanthropically funding a nonprofit saying, “I don't wanna fund this one-off,” as an example.
I don't wanna fund this one-off organization to do this, and we have to do all these one-offs, which a lot of times, philanthropic organizations who are creating catalysts for nonprofits do these one-offs. There's always these one-offs. They’re almost like a hub with a whole bunch of spokes and no wheel.
Right? It's like a whole bunch of spokes sticking out of the hub, “As a one-off I'm gonna fund this, as a one-off I'm gonna fund this, as a one-off I'm gonna fund this.” But that's not very efficient. So what are we talking about when we're talking about leadership development?
Sarah:Yeah, that's a really good question. And you're right. To be fair and put ourselves in the chairs of the funders, there are so many studies on the ineffectiveness of leadership programs. So there's a lot of data to suggest why folks are hesitant here. And some of that is around… There was a really interesting study. McKinsey actually has some really great insights around why leadership development fails. And one of their reports found that training programs are failing to support individuals in really learning and changing due to their lack of focus on mindset and behavior.
So a lot of leadership development programs are focused on the external side of it, and they're not addressing the behaviors and mindset. And without a behavior and mindset shift, the leadership's not changing. And so I thought that was really a fantastic insight because I think we've seen that. And that's a little bit how our work is different.
Tucker: Yeah, exactly. It's almost like so much of leadership development work is either like a summer camp experience—which is your favorite, Sarah. I know.
Sarah: I hate summer camp, everyone.
Tucker: Sarah hates summer camp—Or it's so cognitive. It's about—this is where I wanna differentiate between mindset versus knowledge—cognitive in terms of theories and ways in which to do it. But the reality is—and we've been noticing this too, and we continue to embed literal practices in the room of every single workshop that we do—because we're realizing how deeply important this is to your point around behavior shift.
And a mindset shift too, which is the part... So much of the way that we shift our mind is not through theory, but is actually through experience. And then not just not just having the experience, but then reflecting on our experience that we learn much more as adults from not only each other, but also from, not just from our experience, but by actually reflecting on our experience and exploring what that was.
Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah, it's this piece around self-awareness. And, another report from McKinsey that I really loved, talked about it in relation to inner agility. Inner agility. And said that it was marked by several core competencies or traits, including the ability to ask better questions—if you've listened to other podcasts of ours, you know we're big on that, asking better questions—pausing, taking the time to not just drive forward, but to stop and think, being comfortable not knowing the answers, and then setting the direction, not the destination. And Tucker, when I read this report, I was like, “Oh my gosh!”
Tucker: So. Good.
Sarah: This is all the work at the base of appreciative inquiry meets conscious leadership, right? It's knowing your inner self and then having a set of tools that allow you to engage with others in a co-creative fashion towards a destination, right, rather than a specific set of goals, which I just love.
Tucker: I love that, too.
Hence why if you... Sarah was mentioning our old pod—or not old—but some of our podcasts we've done on strategic planning, that we actually don't even like the word “plan” because it feels too done. It doesn't feel like something we can learn into.
But if it's a strategic direction—and yes, words matter, as the old quote says, “Words create worlds,” and if we say “strategic plan” it feels like it's a little done—but “strategic direction” feels like this is a journey we're all going on.
And that's so interesting that we were using that before you found this study, and it was just this natural, like we've gotta get some people to embark on a journey here.
That this is the beginning of this journey in this direction. As opposed to like, here's the thing that's done.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Tucker, I know we can't show people something up on the screen, although we can share it in the notes. But one of the things that we use to talk to people about high performance versus low performance leadership or reactive leadership versus creative leadership, is this scatter plot that the Leadership Circle put together of the aggregate results from all of these 360 assessments that leaders across the globe have taken, not just in the US, that really show the correlation between a set of competencies and traits and the growth of an organization and the effective working of that organization.
Part of some of those traits are about relating well to others. They're about being mindful around yourself and some of them on the reactive side are around being controlling. Being complying. Being pleasing. One of the pieces that I love that Dr. Danny says is, “It's not necessarily that reactivity is bad, but the question is, when does it serve you?”
“When does it serve you?” And as a leader, the first step is being aware of where I am. Am I sitting in reactivity or am I sitting in creativity? Then having the tools to be able to shift, if it serves you, into another space. And really using those tools of pausing, noticing and choosing to, as a leader, direct where you're going and how you're working with others.
Tucker: Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about too, how do we get in spaces… I was listening through a training that Dr. Daniel Friedland did last year. And what he was saying was we've all been in those situations where we've been reactive. We've been in those spaces where we're being triggered and then we get into fight, flight, or freeze. Where we're fighting against stress or we're flighting against what's giving us stress. Or we're fighting against somebody who's, or something that's, creating self doubt. Or we're fleeing from something that helps, that shows us self doubt or perpetuates more self doubt. There's so much research around, the spirals of reactivity and going down into our brain stem, and the neuroscience behind this.
But he is also looking at what creates the spiral up into creativity.
What creates the spiral up into creativity? And part of what he was sharing was, one of the quotes I love so much from him is that “If we want to lead well in the world, the first place we need to lead well is within ourselves.” But what he also said… Which means that we need to elevate, like how do we elevate our frames? Meaning go up into our brain, from our brain stem up into our limbic system, up into our cortex, and especially our prefrontal cortex.
And what are those practices, which you kind of hit on some of those. Pausing as an example. Pausing, noticing and choosing, having more mindfulness, having more awareness. But he also said—and this has been so key to our work that we've noticed—is that people need to be in cycles of giving and receiving.
Like if you look at our brain science and the middle part of our brain, this is what he was talking about, is that our brain is wired first for safety and then second for belonging. And then third for significance or strategy or things like that. And so many times—and I think this is where leadership development has fallen short—it's focused so much on strategy, and not a space where I'm in cycles of giving and receiving with other people. And while it seems a little frou frou through, sometimes for some people, community is such an important factor involved in reducing isolation. We know this. Loneliness is one of the biggest issues around perpetuating nonprofit leader burnout.
It's more deadly to us as human beings than obesity, smoking and drinking. It reduces our longevity by 70%. As an example from that study from UC California in Irvine. And I know, I'm thinking of people like Lisa Sims Booth who said, “This community has been such a safe space of support and having the accountability and goals related to fundraising.” And she's an incredible ED in the Washington DC area.
I'm thinking of Beth Rolstad who said, “Our fundraising work went from haphazard to routine.” And so we've seen some of these stats that when we focus some of our attention on cognitive-based leadership development, but not on community-driven leadership development, the cognitive-based side really falls short. It really becomes an issue. Especially when it's these one-offs, too. As we were talking about earlier.
Sarah: People just don't… They can't get and retain anything from there. And it's because they haven't had the time to really develop and learn the practices that are gonna support them in changing their habits and changing their mindset.
So, I completely agree. And I think, Tucker, as you were talking, I was thinking about another one of our nonprofit leaders in our leadership collaborative who said to you… What was the quote about being rest based? I think it speaks to a fundamentally different approach and I just love it.
Tucker: Oh, yeah. She said… And just to give context, this was an organization in Colorado Springs that does work with food and food insecurity especially, and food sovereignty. She is an African American, Executive Director of this particular nonprofit. She said, “Really encouraged to see that this leadership training is focusing on rest. It is revolutionary.”
Essentially spaces to pause, to reflect, to figure out where we're going, what's going on within me so that I can also elevate those without or outside of me.
Sarah: I love that framing of it. Correlating or putting together self-awareness and rest. This idea that when we're not resting or pausing, it's harder for us to be self-aware. Which I think is the case. And so part of what we've set up in nonprofits and everywhere else is this dynamic where we're going, going, going, don't have the space to pause, and therefore lack the ability in many ways to be self-aware in a way that's gonna help us lead better within and then better without.
So I love this focus on, and you say it all the time, that when machines pause, they break or stop. And when humans pause, they start working. And so at the base, leadership is pause, it's rest, it's self-awareness. And nonprofit leaders, given where they're in and the circumstance to take us back to where we started, they're going through so much. These are such tough times. Revenue's unstable. Folks can't hire. There's a lack of training and development. But what if we could give people rest? What if we could give them self-awareness? What if we could give them spaces and practices to help them, not just professionally, but personally, so that they can be of more service to their organizations?
Tucker: And do it in the context of others as a part of it. We know from peer-based, or from adult-based, learning that we as adults, many times, learn way more from our peers than we do just from the experts. That's another issue with leadership development, is that so much of it is expert-driven and not peer-driven.
And not that experts are bad, but when we create the conditions that allow for the learners who are in the room to be the teachers as well, that community component gives more and more permission for people to go there. It gives more and more, it ultimately perpetuates more learning to where it's sticky.
I remember Barb Collura over at RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association, and she said she did some, when she was doing her annual reviews with her team, she asked what was the best professional development they'd ever received. And it was, this was two years ago, and it was when we were just doing our THRIVE Conversations.
We did these 90-minute to two-hour workshops, actually every week for a while, right after COVID hit. And she said that her whole staff was saying that this was the best professional development they had. It was so sticky. That was specifically the word that they used, that this was so sticky for them.
Meaning that they learned it. That changed into, turned into behavior change and mindset change. And so much of that is because of how we co-create or create the space of co-creation where people are able to learn from one another, not just from us or some other experts coming into play. And so this sort of twofold of individual and self-awareness growth mixed with the context of a community and letting innovations be set free through helping each other learn from each other, has really proven to be a very powerful leadership development tool.
Sarah: Absolutely. Yeah. And it really speaks to our practice around how we teach and how we engage folks is really very tied in with theories of experiential learning. Which research and studies have shown both increased satisfaction for the learner, but also retention of information.
So the way that we teach and engage matters. And we know this now in education and I love that it is now being incorporated into how we do things like leadership development. Because it matters.
Tucker: Well, so let's close this out with kind of a rapid fire. What should people do?
And so I think from a philanthropic-oriented organization, a foundation, a donor, whatever it might be, to me the next big step is to think about community-driven leadership development almost like an insurance policy for your philanthropic investments. It undergirds the ability for burnout and turnover to not happen, which then perpetuates more impact and actually more revenue for the organization.
So if you're thinking about this and you're looking at your portfolio of all the different programs that you're funding, go into those by asking how the leader is doing, wonder what's going on, and see where are there different ways that you might be able to support not only that one organization, but creating spaces for all those organizations that you're funding to be able to connect with one another and grow in a leadership development type of context.
Sarah, what would you say around—let's say I'm a nonprofit leader—what would you say are some key next steps for them as well?
Sarah: If you are in an organization that has some dollars for professional development, consider getting folks to invest in leadership development. And again, not just the cognitive, but the leadership development that supports folks in connecting into their inner awareness. As an individual, I would say though, even if that's not possible, there are things you can do. And that is partially about one, starting to integrate some practices that will help you become more self-aware. So whether that's box breathing, deep breathing, meditation, yoga.
What are two practices that you can do, quickly each day and ideally, quite frankly, during the work day? These shouldn't just be practices that you can do outside, but they should be practices you can do while you're at work that can help you become more self-aware. So that's number one.
And number two, is as you become more self-aware you're gonna notice things coming up. You're gonna notice inspiration. You're gonna notice wisdom. You're gonna notice feelings. Write them down. Write them down because what you're noticing can help direct and guide your next steps. And so those are the two things I would say to folks to start doing.
Tucker: Yeah, there's that great quote from Victor Frankl that says, “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space is our power to choose our response. And in our response lies our growth and our freedom.”
I love that quote. And he is right, you know. We can be triggered by something, but it doesn't mean we need to react to it. Being aware of that and noting that, as you said, notating what you're noticing about what's happening within you.
Dr. Daniel Friedland speaks to this directly too, “We over identify with the things that we're feeling.” We say things like, “I am angry,” or, “I am annoyed,” or, “I am sad,” or, “I suck,” even. Versus, “I'm noticing that I'm having feelings of self-doubt,” or “I'm noticing that I'm getting a sense of reactivity right now.”
That is actually an important shift that goes back to Victor Frankl's quote. And so starting to note some of those and inviting your teams to do that too. Do it in the context of your own community. Inviting your teams to pause, as you were saying. We do this at the beginning sometimes of our THRIVER meetings too, which is, literally creating three minutes worth of literal silence and pause for people to just get in the room.
And we say, “We're gonna pause for just a minute. Get present in the room. So that way we're all able to be here and listen.” We do this on Zoom, we do this in person. I mean it all works. Doesn't matter what technology you use, but just creating spaces of pause. That’s helpful.
Well, thank you everybody for being here, and listening to our THRIVERS podcast. I'm curious if this one's gonna tee up a little bit more around some of the nuts and bolts around leadership development. We'll see where the next podcast goes. Sarah, as always, it was great to be here with you.
We did talk about some of those resources today. We'll put those in the show notes and on our website at thriveimpact.org/podcast. And the last thing is we have regular workshops coming up too, including the Awakening Conscious Leadership 101 workshop, which kind of introduces people to the space of Dr. Daniel Friedland's work around conscious leadership, as well as things like appreciative inquiry and the power of the questions that we choose, and that we ask. So I'd go check that out. thriveimpact.org/workshops
Those are all coming up at various different times. We'd love to have you come, and check it out.
Until next time, we'll see you then. Yeah, that's what we're doing. Yeah, that's right. Bye everyone!