EP 42: Shifting from Fundraisers to “Friend-raisers” with Joey Goone and Meagan Sweeney-Hyde

Tucker Wannamaker:
Welcome to THRIVERS, Impact Driven Leadership for the Next Normal. I am your host, Tucker Wannamaker, the CEO of THRIVE IMPACT. And if you’re listening to this, you’re probably someone who doesn’t just want to do nice things in the world, but you actually want to create positive change in people’s lives. And not burnout while doing it. Well, how do you do that? Well, our mission here is to redefine what normal is for the workplace. For workplace leadership to be about co-creating impact from the inside out. Burnout is the enemy of creating positive change. And we want to connect you with impact driven leaders and ideas so that you can learn to thrive in today’s landscape.
And so I’m super joyed to have a dear friend of mine on, and you are going to introduce our other guest here in just a minute. But let me introduce you. A friend of mine that I’ve met in a wonderful community that we are both a part of called XCHANGE. You’ve heard us talk about that community in this podcast many times because we use a lot of the XCHANGE Approach. But I’m so excited to have Joey Goone, who’s the president of Utopia Experience on this podcast today. Because, Joey, we’ve done a little bit of work together too. You’ve brought me into different experiences. We’ve had lots of conversations. And I’ll let you talk a little bit about what Utopia does.
But before we do that, I just want to share how much I appreciate the deep level of heart that you bring into the work that you do around events. But even more deeply around helping to really strengthen those who are in some of the toughest leadership conditions in our country. That’s the reality of nonprofit leadership is they’re in some of the toughest leadership conditions in our country. And you consistently are finding and innovating on ways in which to help undergird their ability to tell their story, to raise money legitimately, and in ways that are so connective and building of the mission. And just every time I’m around you, I feel like I’m positively infected with charisma and joy for this type of work. And so just to finally have you on the podcast, Joey, I’m like, “Yeah, this is awesome.” So, Joey, great to be here with you, my friend. And tell us a little bit more about Utopia Experience, and also who is our other guest here as well? So let us know.

Joey Goone:
Yeah, well, thank you for the incredible introduction. It is great to be here sharing space with you too, Tucker. We do go way back. We actually stumbled by accident or necessity into the nonprofit world in 2020 when the world stopped. And predating that, I was actually a guest at an event that our mutual friend, Hal Elrod, was producing and John Berghoff was facilitating.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Oh, that’s awesome.

Joey Goone:
And during that event, there was an opportunity where they played a fund a need video, and we, as a collective group of 100 prospective donors, wrote a letter to the little girl that was on the fund a need video. And we laughed and we cried, and I felt feelings that I hadn’t felt before, being a part of a donor community like that. And I woke up the next day and said, “Why is my company not doing more of that?” So that was in 2017. And then in 2020, because of the series of events that happened in the world, it gave us this perfect segue for us to get much more involved in the nonprofits space and in that community that I so deeply wanted to be a part of.
And Meagan and her organization, she actually worked for a Wish organization. You have 14 years of nonprofit background and experience. And they actually became a client of ours. And so I’ve just been vicariously… I know we’ve been a part of one another’s journeys from afar, from a distance. And we ended up reconnecting in 2023, and the timing was right. And it just made sense for you to come on board, given your depth of background and wisdom. Because I think that our nonprofit clients, they could use that support, and that help, and that diversity of perspective that you bring from the lens of empathy. Given that, you know their struggles, you know those pain points that Tucker just alluded to. And, now, you’re here as a compassionate soul to really be able to help empathize with them and to help really further their impact here as a client of Utopia.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Yeah, well, and I’m so excited to be a part of the Utopia team first. Who wouldn’t want to work for someone in a company that has the name Utopia in it? And then Experience after that, you just can’t help but be happy. But like Joey said, have followed his career path from 2016, 2017. And just how much this company has grown, and truly has that heart and soul that we’re much more than event planning, event producers. We want to see every single one of our customers and missions really have an impactful event. But grow their revenue, grow their relationships, their stewardship. It’s more than just a transactional relationship. And that’s what really brought me, because it’s more than just consulting. We’re really helping grow and do some great things here. So really excited to be part of the team. Thank you, Joey, for that introduction.

Tucker Wannamaker:
That’s awesome. As Joey was alluding to, you’ve got some deep trenches of work, or been in the deep trenches of work, in events and fundraising in nonprofits for many years and have raised… How much have you… Obviously, fundraising is a team sport, but under your purview and you being a part of teams, how much have y’all raised in your work events?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Up to some points, about $30 to $40 million under my portfolio umbrella nationwide. And then, again, that’s from a national perspective. But then that’s where I’m really excited to have that one-on-one connection with our customers. Because as a boots on the ground fundraiser and event planner, we really want to take that load off of them. You can have an amazing event, but if the fundraisers and the nonprofits aren’t doing what they should, which is that stewardship, that relationship building, fundraising, and where we can take that load of that event planning and creativity and help really just be a partner, that’s where I’m excited.
And, also, again, what’s that next new normal, like you’re talking about? We’re here and what are those next events? What is new? What is it that Gen Z, millennial, baby boomers, what are we looking for now that’s going to drive those people to come back year over year and make those events different and meaningful and purposeful? And so that’s where I think that lens of having that nonprofit experience and event experience and, now, coming over on this side is just going to be great. It’s just really a true testament to Joey and his team that they’re making that investment and care about all their accounts and customers enough to bring on more of a consultant, like myself, to this team to give that expert lens. So, again, so excited to be here, and excited to collaborate on all the good things with you guys today too. It’s going to be fun.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Well, and with that, Meagan, I’d love to dive into our topic, and you were starting to allude to this, which is there are a lot of events happening across the country that nonprofits put together. I don’t have an exact percentage because I don’t know if there’s data, but maybe you have data, but how many of them suck? I went to an event last year, to a fundraising event for a local nonprofit here in Denver, which is where I live. And it was so horrible to me. It was total sit-and-get. I felt guilted into things. I do a lot of work around conscious leadership, which means being able to pause, notice when I’m in reactivity. And, man, did this send me into some reactivity. I was awkward. It was angry. I didn’t get to talk to really anybody around my table, outside of the awkwardness at the dinnertime. There was so much about it that I left early because I was so frustrated at the whole experience. And this was a great nonprofit. I know this nonprofit, they do wonderful work. And the experience of their event was so not next normal, if you will.
And so I want to dig into this topic around storytelling, meeting, events for the next normal because a lot of us do it. I can’t tell you how many people and organizations… In fact, we just were on a call earlier today with a community foundation, one that we’re working with in New York. And we’ve been doing these framings around how to help people say no to things because they’re doing too much. And that’s typically the case. They’re doing too much. And we usually help them go through a frame and a process of what is high impact and low effort. And most of the time… Or it’s an impact to effort matrix. And so, usually, things that are low impact and high effort are the hell nos, basically. It’s like big X, don’t do that. High effort, low impact. And so many times, things like golf tournaments or fundraising events go in that category. And it just happened literally earlier today before this call. How serendipitous of this.
And so I wanted to get into this. First of all, before we get into what is the next normal, what are these pains and issues that these nonprofit leaders are experiencing, regarding their events and being able to effectively story tell in those?

Joey Goone:
Gosh, so many things. We can just piggyback off of each other.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Where to begin, yeah. I’ll let you take the lead on-

Joey Goone:
So I would say, it’s the wearing multiple hats. It is not enough resources, not enough time. And board expectations are unrealistic. And I think that… I’m a board member myself, and I sit on a couple of different boards, and I am an incoming board elect for an organization. And I think that we all have the best intentions as board members, but the reality is, when I leave the board, I’m running my own company. And so there’s an expectation there that the executive director, the CEO, of that organization is going to… It’s like, “Oh my God, we have all of these incredible ideas that we want to help you implement, and you go execute them now, Mr. or Mrs. Executive Director. And we go back to our day jobs and we’ll see you next quarter.”

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah. Good luck with that. Enjoy, have fun. Yeah.

Joey Goone:
We have the best intentions, our hearts are in the right place. But we don’t have the capacity to help you execute them because we have to turn our attention to the companies that we run or our day jobs. So that’s number one. And then if we zoom the problem out a little bit further and make it more specific to pain points in our specific industry. I think that the overwhelming majority of our conversations are around KPIs, or metrics, or setting expectations where, perhaps, we’re just measuring the wrong things. And for an example, if I went… And we just had this conversation not 15 minutes ago. If I went to my dearest friends that are executive directors in nonprofits and I asked them, “Why are we planning this event? What are your key objectives? Help us understand your goals.” I’d say 10 out of 10 of them would say, “To raise more money.” Maybe nine.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yep, a logical answer, yeah.

Joey Goone:
And so when we delve into the goals though, for sponsors and stakeholders and board members and donors and recipients, many respond with uncertainty. Admitting that they don’t have a clear picture what those stakeholders’ goals are for the event.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
They’re really thinking bigger picture, right?

Joey Goone:
Yeah.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Instead of just raising money that night of, what’s this lifecycle of the donor? There’s so many people that are in the room for the first time, or showing up to an event, or getting to know your mission for the first time. What are you doing with them? And then where can we… Again, there’s such an emphasis lately on major gifts and planned giving. And I feel like there’s that push and pull between events and major gifts right now. And I will sit at the stake on this one, in order to build that pipeline for major gifts… And, again, that’s a multiple year situation for many donors. And so how are we getting people into our pipeline? How are they getting invested in the mission? If we can get them into that room, to the mission, to touch it, see it, feel it, again, build a community where they feel safe.
It sounded like, Tucker, at the event you went to, you didn’t feel like you had that sense of community, or it didn’t feel like a safe place for you, or where you felt like it could be accepted.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah. Not at all.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
And so it needs to be so much more than just, “We’re going to raise $1 million tonight,” and then call it a day. It’s that night. The collaboration before, during, and then especially after in that stewardship. That really needs to be a huge key. Instead of, again, when… And, again, I’m a nonprofit professional. And it’s always, “Let’s raise the most money.” You could have the best event, if you don’t make the budget, it doesn’t matter. But it’s got to be much bigger picture than that. I think it’s meet that goal and all of the other things that really need to be put in place.

Joey Goone:
And the prevailing mindset is, if we don’t hit the financial measures, then heads will roll. If our event doesn’t raise the money and surpass last year’s fundraising, which is set on some arbitrary number that we think just sounded attractive because it was 10% or 20% more than last year’s, that mindset overshadows the opportunity to view events as a platform for nurturing relationships and caring about people and impact. And so we believe that there’s a big opportunity. And to your initial question, Tucker, is how many organizations are doing it right? I don’t know what that number is. But I would say that there’s a major opportunity for people to lean into this stuff and realize, as a nonprofit leader, you need to give yourself a little bit of grace and maybe zoom out.
It’s so hard to see the forest through the trees. And when you’re in the fire, you’re walking through it, you’re drinking from a fire hose, just pause for a moment as you’re listening to this conversation in the podcast. Put your hand over your heart. Just feel your heartbeat. Feel yourself breathing. And just pause for a moment and realize the only thing that matters is that, to get a little philosophical, as you’re alive in this moment and you can and still and will make a difference, and you are making a difference every single day of your life. And the world is better because you’re in it. And so I just always like to look at, what are the little things we can do on a daily basis to really pour into our internal deposits, our internal bank account? Because the more we pour into our internal bank account, the more we can pour into the external bank accounts that we all want to put more deposits into. But you got to care about you first. And if you care about you, you can more effectively, more compassionately care about others.
And then that brings us back to, are we having a fundraiser or a friendraiser? The fundraiser, the goal is we’ve got maybe 100, 200, 300 people that know about us that have capacity and propensity to give. A friendraiser is, “Hey, I’ve poured into myself. I love myself. I stand strong in what I’m doing. I have confidence and courage to know that I’m making a difference. And, now, I’m going to use this as a platform to tell more people about the awesome work that we’re doing and enroll them in our mission.” And maybe we’re not measuring a friendraiser objectively, just based on how much money we raise or don’t raise. Maybe it’s how many new hearts are in the seats.

Tucker Wannamaker:
You hit on quite a few different things, and you’re hitting on the prevailing mindset of, if we don’t raise this money, heads are going to roll. You also hit on board earlier a little bit too, and I wanted to hit on that too. Because let me go to board first and then I want to hit on this. What are the underlying conditions that are actually perpetuating a really problematic cycle? Like scarcity, basically. Heads are going to roll, which is a sense of scarcity. There’s not enough. I’m not enough. We’re not going to get enough. There isn’t enough. And what that does.
But on the board side, you said something around board’s expectations are unrealistic, which I completely see that all the time. And on both sides, one, boards not giving… Coming up with all these ideas. And because they’re in a position of authority in the organization, many times, I’ve noticed that boards, they don’t appreciate the fact that when they bring ideas, people view those as if they need to actually get them done because they’re coming from a position of authority. Versus, I’ve been on boards before and I’m like, “Yeah, I’ve got an idea.” I didn’t expect it to… That’s the thing we have to do.
But it’s definitely a thing I’ve been noticing of boards either being too flippant with their ideas and not realizing how the nonprofit leaders are actually receiving those ideas, or being on the opposite side, which is actually letter of the law too stringent and not allowing for learning in the process. Because when you were saying board’s expectations are unrealistic, many times, I’m noticing too, boards are not giving a space for the nonprofit leaders to say no. To say, “What does it take?” This is one of Sarah, who’s typically my co-host on here with me, this is one of Sarah’s. She speaks to our nos give power to our most important yeses. And one of the most important questions we can ask is, what does it take? Before we actually choose to move forward on it. It’s a discerning question to understand before we decide. And boards don’t give the opportunity to really get into the understanding of what this stuff takes. And, Meagan, this is a lot of work. This is a lot of work.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
It is. Well, and it’s also remembering we may not have the same resource as a Fortune 500 company. We might have a national office, if we’re lucky, especially for some of our smaller guys. So it’s, here’s these ideas, but how are we, as a board and a team, going to help you get there? And, also, again, back on event night, and how are we going to build these committees? How are we going to get the right people in the seat? How are we going to do fund the mission? I always say, you could put me in front of anyone, but unless I have that warm lead and someone from the board and that backing, that ask is not going to be as strong. So we need our boards to show up and get the right, I’ll say it, but the right butts in the seat to help make those connectors. A lot less event planning. We don’t need someone to be working on centerpieces.

Joey Goone:
Ah, preach. I’ll do the Tucker snaps.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
And so I think it’s also setting those expectations and the job descriptions when you onboard. You can be really busy with fundraising, but one of the most hardest positions, as a nonprofit professional, is getting the right people in the seat in the board or committee. And managing them correctly and making sure everybody’s happy because you’re going to have so many different personalities in the room. And that’s back to number one, it’s making sure you have the right people. And being able to say no and being in a safe place too. Because especially with, no matter how large an organization you are, there’s still needs. And it’s hard. So you have to really set those boundaries and stick up to them and be really consistent from person to person. Because board members, sponsors, everyone talks if you’re not consistent. And then it’s going to get out pretty quickly too, and then you really lose that trust as well from those important stakeholders as well.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah, yeah. And I’m thinking of EDs, if you’re in a situation where you have board members who are bringing ideas or wanting to continue that gala, literally… So let me bring this experience that I had earlier today about this golf tournament. And what happened was is we’ve been doing these workshops with this organization around being a learning organization. And after this big workshop we did in New York two weeks ago, the woman, her name is Mary I believe, Mary came in and was like, “I don’t think we ought to do this golf tournament anymore.”
And they’ve been doing this for a long time. But she had so much trepidation prior to, mainly because of, I think, previous leadership came from on high. And this new CEO, he’s been there about a year now, is very much about help us to learn how to learn together. And so based on our workshop and what we’re doing with him, he just told me earlier today that she came in and was like, “I don’t think we should be doing this because it doesn’t fit in some of these frames that we’d been talking about. But I was nervous to tell you before but, now, I realize that you actually aren’t going to get angry about it. You actually want us to really hone and say no to things so that we can say our most important yeses.”
And I’m thinking about an ED or an events planner or somebody within a nonprofit. What are the ways that they can bring this forward to their organizations, to their boards. And reflective questions like, “Hey, before we make a decision on whether or not we want to move forward on this, would it be okay if we all got a little more granular with what might this take for us to actually accomplish what it is that we feel like we want to accomplish?” That way, we have a little clearer understanding, is everybody okay with that? You’re enrolling them into a reflective question. So, that way, you don’t get yourself set up into an awkward position where I’m getting somebody telling me to do something I already know I don’t want to do it from the moment they said it. But, now, I can’t say no. And, now, I’m angry that I’m doing it. But then that feeds into the experience as well. It’s just this bad downward spiral of reactivity across the whole thing.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Yeah. And you mentioned this new normal, and we’re here. It’s totally fine to go through and have an event assessment, and what’s working? What’s not? Joey and I talk about this all the time. Events are not dead. Bad events are. The time of the same chicken dinner, and the same walk that’s been going on for 20 years with nothing new to it. Our sponsors, our stakeholders, want something different. Our volunteers want something different. And we have to stay up on trends with what millennials and Gen Z want too. And I’ll just go out and say it. I think it’s endurance events. I’m really excited for what’s happening with endurance events, and the fundraising dollars that are coming in through with that, and the different ways that we can engage with those. But, again, events aren’t dead.
And, again, I’ve been having a huge push and pull of events are dead and it goes straight to major gifts. And it’s not that. It’s bad events are dead. And how do we reassess our event portfolio, being able to stick up to your board just because the same gala that honors the same person year over year is done. We’ve got to stick up for ourselves.
And another thing is it burns out our staff. There are resources and dollars that go towards it. So, again, if we’re going to spend these expenses, how are we going to get the most bang for our buck, and meet our donors, and really have a new pool of donors come in? And how can we do that? So is it maybe taking away one event so that you can focus more on another? Thinking about your sponsors, are they being pushed… In an area like St. Louis, there’s only so many large organizations that give. And that may fall into your philanthropic objectives. If you have five events, you’re only going to have so much sponsorship to go round eventually. So you have to think about your market too and what your market wants. And I always say St. Louis is more of a walk city versus Kansas City so all our galas do a lot better. So it’s what does your market want too?
And it can vary. And just because you have… In some national organizations, it’s, “Here’s your event portfolio. These are your campaigns you have to execute.” And so I understand that too. But I think now is the time to really sit down and reassess your event portfolio, and where you have opportunities of growth. And to put that time, resources, and treasure into them to really grow it.

Tucker Wannamaker:
I love that. Well, and, Meagan, you’re hitting on that second topic that, Joey, you brought forward around heads are going to roll, and this scarcity. And one of the most important ways to create a great event is by making sure that that’s actually the event you want to do, right, Meagan?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Yeah.

Tucker Wannamaker:
You’re saying, let’s assess with honesty and truth that we don’t need to just perform all the time and just keep just perpetuating the same old cycle of burnout. But how do we have an honest conversation, and really understand what it is? By the way, if y’all have any event assessment guides, we’d love to put those in the show notes, or something like that, for people to be able… Yeah, so if you have that… Do you have that?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
I could probably draft some. I’ve done lots of assessments in my time. But, yeah, something that we can definitely collaborate on, for sure.

Joey Goone:
Or call us and we’ll come to your event and do an event debrief or audit with you after.

Tucker Wannamaker:
There you go, Utopia will do an event assessment. But the point being here around scarcity is that it perpetuates in all these different places. With the board person telling you, “Hey, these are the ideas that we want to do.” Nonprofit leaders already feeling like we’re already strapped, now we’re adding more. Or we’re strapped, why are we still doing this? Because they’re not connected into the why of it. And that just perpetuates this scarcity. And so part of the way to get out of that is some of what you’re hitting on. Because what I know, and I’m curious what you’ve experienced as well, both of you, is what happens come the event, when we’re in that scarcity mode? What happens? What is the tenor of the experience? What is the feeling from us and from people? When you’ve noticed EDs and board members coming into an event with scarcity, what does that look like, feel like, and sound like?

Joey Goone:
Tune out, shut down, turn off. You’re in a place of… So just to use the neuroscience framework, Tucker, you’re in the amygdala. You’re in the fight or flight. And it’s really hard. This is where I think events are a microcosm for life as a whole. And what you share… By the way, the work that you’re doing, Tucker, and your audience, I know that they’ve become huge fans of you, the importance of this work cannot be overstated. It’s beautiful.
And it’s all about coming from the lens of connection and community. And creating this space for reflective questions for us to open up and to share experiences. So the heart’s open, so the mind’s open. So we tap into the prefrontal and the neocortex. And get out of the lizard brain, or the monkey brain, that causes us to focus on scarcity and differences, opposed to how we all connect, and how we’re all so interconnected and related. And, again, I think that if we could view events as a microcosm for life, events could be the most beautiful and enriching opportunity for all of us to build larger, more connected, more impactful, more resourceful ecosystems. So that was a long way of just sharing that I think that there’s, coming from the scarcity mindset, maybe those are some of these events that we’ve discussed, those events that aren’t as successful as we hoped they’d be.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah, because they’re coming out of scarcity.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Well, and people want to be a part of something that’s winning. And so if a board, executive director, and their development team are going in, and like, “Well, we only raised $800,000, and we have a goal of $1 million.” We’ve raised a lot of money still. And then that energy transfers on to ungratefulness to maybe the people that did raise all that money. And so, yeah, people want to be a part of something that’s winning. And so I think it’s just so important. That’s just something I’ve been really zoning in on is setting realistic goals. 20%, year over year, right now, is that really attainable when we are looking at trends in companies?

Tucker Wannamaker:
Major giving is going down, actually, too. Philanthropy is in an interesting spot. It’s the first time in 40 years, based upon a friend of mine who is deep in this world. I was like, “Oh, that’s a very interesting stat of understanding that major donor giving is going down,” for the first time, really.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Yeah. It’s going to be interesting to see in the next five years just, again, those trends too. And the biggest threat right now, I think, to any nonprofit is just turnover. We can’t build relationships with our donors and get to where we need to be if, every year, there’s a new person in the seat. Every three years, there’s a new executive director. We’ve got to be able to build better relationships. And that means taking care of the people in our organizations, setting realistic goals. And, again, that’s why I keep bringing up an event assessment, or really assessing… Now that we’re in this… We’re past the pandemic now, knocking on wood. And we are dealing with some economic things right now too. And so what works? What are we not going to have burnout for? How are we not going to have that turnover? Is really important. And so zoning in on those best events and how we can find those resources.
And that’s why, again, I’m just really excited to be part of Utopia because we want our clients to be out fundraising. We want them to be building those relationships, strategizing. And then we can take that hat of, how can we make this event different and creative? And really make it something different, year over year. And, again, instead of another chicken dinner or another walk that’s been going on for 10 years. Let us do that and take that off you so that you can just raise more money. And then, when they come there, we can help even more from there.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Well, I’d love to hop into… We’ve already been speaking to what is the next normal of impact driven leadership around storytelling and events. And we’ve already hit on some of that. A lot of that has to do with pre-event and not setting yourself up for failure altogether. Boards being honorable, or being honest with, and opening up space for honesty that allows for the ED and the nonprofit team to be able to share nos. Or can we explore and assess, really, what are we really trying to do here? Why is this important for us to do this? And what does it take for us to do this? And then make a decision from there. And getting out of that scarcity. And, Joey, you were hitting on that conscious leadership work, which, from my own personal lived experience, specifically even around revenue… I think I’ve shared some on this podcast before around some healing I had around my own belief around revenue itself. My belief with money actually created my own isolation and it was a problem. And I think that was on a previous podcast somewhere.
But that being said, I want to get into the event itself. So, let’s say, we’ve created the space. We’ve assessed our events. We’ve paused notice and chosen less reactivity, fight, flight, or freeze. We’re now in a more state of creativity, which is the space for positive leadership. It’s based upon Leadership Circle data. And then, now, we’re at the event and we’ve prepped for the event. What is the next normal now for the event itself? What do we need to start thinking about? And, Meagan, you already started to hit on this, but I wanted to dive into it specifically. What do we need to be doing for these types of events, if anything? Maybe it’s make them a lot smaller. I don’t know. I’m curious. It’s an open-ended question around what’s the next normal look like here?

Joey Goone:
So what we believe is that organizations have done such a great job of connecting people to their mission. The biggest opportunity exists when we take it one step further and provide the space to connect them with each other. And so this is grounded in the 3C approach. We all have our different interpretations of the 3Cs. I’ve heard your 3Cs, I think they’re amazing. We’ve just basically taken that, and taken that secret sauce of the 3Cs and made it our own, if you will. And not to regurgitate, but I think they’re so important that… We can hit on them again. And it’s, people come for the first C, which is content. They want you to teach them something. Then there’s connection, where they’re connecting with each other, maybe connecting with the mission. Ultimately, why people come back is the community. How are we connecting them with each other? That’s what ultimately creates psychological safety in large environments.
And so you think about if I’m one of 500 people, I, myself, attended a gala by myself. My wife and I have a 13-month-old. It’s not as easy for us to just up and leave Sage now on a Saturday night. We couldn’t get a babysitter. But there was a client event that I really wanted to attend. And I walked into this space, and I was by myself in a new environment, and I knew no one. And so, from that lens, I leaned in. And I was like, “What can I learn from this experience, feeling isolated, feeling like I’m not a part of the community?”
And really brought that back to our organization to unpack that as a case study and an event audit or debrief, to think about how do we create the conditions where people feel seen, and felt, and safe, and heard, within the first two minutes that they arrive at any of our event experiences? And that could be something as simple as a red carpet greeting at the entrance, where we have someone that they recognize greeting them, standing on the red carpet. Asking them questions like, “Hey, Meagan, why are you here today? Tell us why you decided to come? How long have you been around? How long have you been a donor? Here’s your partner. Oh my God, introduce your partner.” Just that little space.
And by the way, the questions that we ask on the red carpet… We recently did this with a private school, and we were asking questions guided by the information that they wanted to know about their donors. So we asked, “Tell us how old your kids are? How many kids do you have in your family?” Maybe these are new families and they don’t have all of that information. And because we were recording all of that footage from the red carpet, we turned that over to the organization after the event. And the admissions director had information to go out and start to enroll new families, based on the information we gathered from that red carpet. So not only was it data and information for the executive director and the admissions team, but it was an incredible and exceptional arrival experience for these guests. For as soon as they stepped into the space, they were embraced. So that’s what we think the biggest opportunity is, not just connecting people to the mission, but connecting them with each other. And doing that throughout, peppering those opportunities throughout the entire course of the event.

Tucker Wannamaker:
I think that’s so brilliant. I was thinking about this event that I went to that I had a lot of disdain for. And just the entrance was, “What’s your name?” And something, ultimately, to getting to them having my credit card on file. So from the beginning, it felt transactional, right away. They were nice, but it wasn’t like… I did not feel at all connected. And I did feel isolated. There was somebody I had come with that had invited me. But I still was like, “Oh, I’m not…” And I’m in this world. This is the world I exist in so much of the time with nonprofits. And I was like, “Oh.” And, yeah, it didn’t feel connective at all. So I really love that tactic. And that specificity, Joey, that you’re hitting on around how do we think about this from a lens of connection for people that, from the moment they walk in, within the first two minutes. And what a great design question, how might we create an exceptional arrival experience within the first two minutes that everybody feels connected and less alone? What a brilliant question.

Joey Goone:
That question was one question that you brought to the mastermind that you facilitated-

Tucker Wannamaker:
Oh, was it?

Joey Goone:
… told it to your clients last year.

Tucker Wannamaker:
No way. That’s funny. I had no idea.

Joey Goone:
As a matter of fact, I can pull up the THRIVERS workshop booklet that we co-collaborated on, and that question is in there. And it’s a brilliant question, man. Brilliant question.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Oh, that’s funny. I had no idea. That’s so funny. I do so many workshops that I don’t remember half of them now at this point.

Joey Goone:
But it’s a point, in that, this work matters so much to you that it’s so ingrained in the core of who you are that you didn’t even know when you weren’t referencing something from the past. It’s just so authentic that it just exists in the core of your being and who you… And, anyway, you didn’t even realize you were referencing that workshop, where we had 30, 40 nonprofit leaders with us. I know you changed their perspective just from you being a part of that experience and facilitating.

Tucker Wannamaker:
That’s great. That was great. That was a fun experience, for sure. What else is next normal? And by the way, Joey, I appreciate your specificity around… Because the more how we can get to, the more that anybody’s able to understand. When you just talked about that red carpet, I felt like I could see it, I could feel it. I felt like that’s something that we could do. So I’d love that level of specificity around understanding, both the why, from connection, all the way through to the tactic right there on the red carpet, getting footage of it. That gave data back to the nonprofit, that created connection. I love that through line all the way through, Joey, and I see it. I’m curious, what else? What else is there around this next normal?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Well, and I think technology. Again, nonprofits, they’re limited on resources. So leaving it up to the subject matter experts and those that are in events to really leverage. And to give the best advice for what type of technology. Videography so that we can story tell, having a videographer and the right photographer there that evening. Audiovisual and different type of… And you guys can talk a little bit more on that of some things that have been done recently that really draw that in to make this event different and unique. Then, again, just another… I keep saying chicken… I may have said it three times now. But that’s where these events will be different is really zoning in on the technology. And maybe some examples that you have, Joey, from… We have Florida coming up. That’s going to be an exciting event too.

Joey Goone:
Yeah. To get into those nitty grittys and the specifics, Tucker, there’s an event where… And by the way, there’s an organization that I know that you might be speaking at in Colorado in 2024, that I had the pleasure and the privilege to speak at in 2023. And after I spoke at that event, there was an event organizer who raised her hand. She’s an executive director and she stands up conferences all over the country. And she said, “You just took my understanding of audiovisual from one dimensional to 12 dimensional.” That lady, Laurie, who I love dearly, has become a personal friend and a client of ours at Utopia. She just met us that day. I hope that what we’re talking about today helps your audience have a similar experience.
And so maybe I could do so with this next example. And it’s what we’re doing for an organization down in Florida, and it’s a hospital foundation. And so we’re taking them through, basically, four different prerecorded stories in a space. And those different stories are really different milestones and accomplishments along the patient’s journey. So the first one is their child just gets diagnosed, there’s uncertainty, there’s anxiety, what happens next? The second one is… And I don’t have to go through all the whole framework. But just think there’s four different prerecorded video stations. And they’re touring them, similar to what you do at the art museum for van Gogh, if you will.
And so we’re breaking people up within the first five minutes that they arrive at this event. And we’re breaking them up in small groups of 20 to 30 people. And it’s all color coordinated, so we’re calling them by colors. And then we have tour guides or ambassadors, who are experts on the hospital foundation, that are leading these different groups into guided tours of these four different video stories. And there’ll be photo ops along the way. There’ll be different brand activations along the way. For instance, this particular hospital foundation is saving limbs of children. And so a starfish… This was Brian, and you were a part of this conversation too, it’s really interesting. So a starfish is their animal… What’s the word?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Mascot.

Joey Goone:
Their mascot, thank you.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Spirit animal.

Joey Goone:
Thank you, spirit animal. And it’s because a starfish is the only animal that can regrow its limbs. And so after we tell them one of the stories, there’s going to be a starfish tree that donors are… There’s a personal recorded message with what I just shared about the starfish. And a starfish tree that we’re building out. And little starfish keepsakes that donors are going to grab from the tree and take with them that all have engraved messages from some of the different patient families. And so they’re immediately getting immersed into this experience, where there’s shared experience with all of their different peers that they’ve just now met, who were strangers five minutes ago and, now, they’ve become best friends. They’re going to laugh together, they’re going to cry together. And then the whole story culminates on this pier, overlooking the Intracoastal, for their cocktail hour. So I don’t know if there were any elements that I missed that you wanted to touch on.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
I think it’s using technology to walk through the different… And give those warm and fuzzy feelings throughout so that it’s… And I understand that, at some events, it is hard to get to every single person in the room. There’s only so many of us and so many people in the room. So I think using these vignettes is really a strategic approach to use technology to our advantage to get the warm and fuzzy feelings. So, again, you go through that whole feel. And then, after that, then you’re overlooking the ocean. And you’re able to network and have that feeling of gratitude and all the warm and fuzzies. That’s what we want at events is for people to feel empowered, and excited, and renewed, and want to make a difference. And so I’m really excited about these vignettes. And, again, the starfish is such a great tie-in as well.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Tell me about… I love that. What I hear, and what you’re sharing, is this, as quick as possible, connecting people into the mission. It’s not some person getting up and giving a long speech. It’s connecting them into a story, right off the bat, using visual means. And it sounds like using those four different vignettes ahead of time, or getting those done ahead of time, helped to create an efficiency, almost, to where you’re able to have group people in different groups, going around with experts, almost like a tour guide. I love that. I can visualize them going through that and experiencing that.
I’m curious about one thing which gets into… Let me just call it the ask. This last event I went to, it was auction-y, for sure. You had the paddle and the things. And I hated it, first of all, but that’s me. Some people love it, they’re good. I don’t. It feels like a bunch of guilt. And then they’re like, “Well, you got a free dinner tonight.” I was just like, “Y’all…” I don’t know what it is about my radar on that stuff, but it is very high around leveraging guilt. And I get it. That can translate. But it feels so inauthentic and not mission driven and impact driven for the person.
And so I’m curious, from your perspective, you have them go through the tour guide, you have them go out in this networking event out on the ocean. What is the ask for the next normal? What is the… And maybe there isn’t one. To be honest with you, I don’t know. Maybe it’s something completely different. But if this is a fundraiser, which we do, that is one of the metrics, not the only metric… And, Joey, you were hitting on this earlier. But if that’s our only metric, then we’re missing the whole point. Yet, at the same time, we do need to hold that true in that. The goal of this is that it took resources for us to do it. We want to have a return on our investment, and a return on our impact for that matter. How does that come about in this type of a next normal space from your perspective?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
And if I may, I think, after having such a unique experience, it’s helping us spread awareness. Help us spread awareness of our mission. Next time that you’re out and about and sitting down for dinner, bring your friends into this. Invite other people into the mission. I think that that’s the ask. Because, again, we are only our group and our sphere of influence. So, once again, you make your donation. Then what? I think it’s that. How to get involved. How to, say, post on your social media about the great experience you just had. Or you just met Susie and, gosh, she’s been through so much and I can’t stop thinking about this two weeks later still. I think that that’s… Again, that’s really some of those follow-ups. And that’s where it’s so important to, after the event… The event part’s great, but what are you doing after? What are you doing on Monday to get in front of those people? So that while they’re hot and activated and still have the warm and fuzzies from that evening, asking them to get involved. Asking them how they want to get involved.
I think that’s the thing too. Everyone’s different. Everyone has different bandwidths. I’m a mom, Joey’s a dad. What can you get? What does your bandwidth have right now? And if it’s a no right now, how can we continue this relationship? Or what capacity do you want to be engaged at? I think our millennial age group, we have a different filter for things like that. Again, the auctioneer turns some of us off. There’s certain things that give us the icks, a call to Nick, and that give us the excitement. And I think, for me, I’ll be honest, it’s making a difference, being part of a community. So I don’t know, that’s my two cents on that one.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Well, and you were hitting on some things that you can do after, which I think is such an important piece. I’m also curious about how do you make it easy for people to donate right there in the room? And how do you create the space?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
That’s something I always wonder.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Right. How do you create the space that allows them to create joy in their life by being able to give because they feel the reciprocity? That this is a cycle of giving and receiving. As our dear mentor, Joey, Dr. Danny used to say, “When we’re in spaces of creativity, we’re in cycles of giving and receiving with one another.” And part of that is what are they receiving? Which you’re hitting on that. They’re receiving connection, greater impact, a potential to be a part of something bigger than themselves. And how do they also give, in a way? Literally with money, but then also other ways, Meagan, where you’re heading. And what is next normal for the literal money transacting?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Well, for the love of God, can we please make giving these transactions easy for our donors? I think that that’s huge. If there’s an online fundraising page, have QR codes ready to go, the night of. Texts to give. Again, so that our donors, and people, once they’re captivated in the room, do they know what they’re supposed to do next? This is maybe some people’s first time there. So before, during the event, after, that text to give can be a really, really great resource. Also, PayPal, Venmo. I know that not every organization has it, but you need it. It’s very, very important to have that. And, again, if someone has money, make it easy for them to give to us.
And then, also, alternative currencies too. And this may not be the night of. But do they have stock, mileage points, crypto? Making sure that you have a team on hand. Again, so you just had this event. There’s the warm and fuzzies. And there’s so many different types of currencies now. Make it easy for people to give your money, and get it while they’re activated and excited to do so. And then, last but not least, this is a no-brainer, but mobile bidding, if you have a silent auction, of course, this will only help. Joey, what’s your two cents on that?

Joey Goone:
I pare it back a little bit and I come back to the philosophy. And it’s how we opened up this conversation. It’s one of the first things I mentioned. And it’s that, in 2017, I attended that event, the Hal’s event that John Berghoff facilitated. And, first, they played a fund a need video with this little girl who was battling for her life. Then they asked us to personally write letters of endearment and love and joy and connection, sharing words of inspiration with her and her family during and through this very difficult time. Then they asked, “Can we make her wish come true?” And a group of 100 of us said, “Are you effing kidding me? There’s no way she’s not going.”
And so I come back to what we’re doing with this organization in Florida. How they’re going to go through that thing, and in the first 10 minutes they walk into the venue, they’re going to say, “What is this organization? Why am I here? My friend invited me, I don’t know,” blah, blah, blah. After they go through that last vignette in the four short 90 second stories, they’re going to be laughing, they’re going to be crying. They’re going to say, “Oh my God, that’s why I’m here. This matters.” So it’s getting them out of the amygdala, opening up that space for social and emotional connection, ultimately landing them in the prefrontal cortex. They’re in this space of giving and receiving.
Then we go into that fund a need moment. And just before we do that, we hand them a personalized, handwritten card from a patient, a little kid, who had a life-giving surgery because of the donations. And those were obviously made possible by all of the individuals that are in the room that night. So we’re handing out personalized, handwritten letters to all of the donors in this space. Then we’re making the ask. Then we need to make it easy. And so I just come back to the whole philosophy and the psychology, Tucker, of making sure that people understand where the money’s going and why it matters. And then we invite them into the space of giving.

Tucker Wannamaker:
I love that sequence that you were taking us through there. What a fascinating concept or idea of you see that video, and then you ask people to write a letter to them. What a fascinating… And I don’t want to call it tactic to dehumanize it, but what a fascinating way to help people connect. What would you write to them? Take a moment right now. And, literally, this is a girl that we know. Take a moment to write to them.
I’m even thinking about this with THRIVE IMPACT. We have a nonprofit arm of our work. We receive donations. I was like, “What if we were able to help support more small community-based nonprofits,” which we’ve been doing with our donations, “to subsidize small community-based nonprofits who need this level of work?” And I’m like, “Wow, what if people were able to write a letter to Lisa, or to Amy, or to Kirsten, who I just talked to, to Simeon?” So that these different nonprofit leaders like, “Hey, got your back. I’m in support. Hope you’re doing well,” whatever it is. And then just started to take them down that path of connection into what this is.

Joey Goone:
Can I add one more thing just to take it one step further even?

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah.

Joey Goone:
So we talked about the connection piece, and the thank you letters, and how to make that space of empathy come alive in your event setting. And even beyond that, Tucker, with what you’re doing. Can that also happen outside of the event? And I would say yes. And it absolutely should be that the end of the event is the beginning of the relationship. And so one of the things we just recently did is, we’ll do in-event surveys where people scan them, scan a QR code on the screens. And we’ll ask them how they like to be thanked. And so imagine that the technology in this space is serving you in this capacity. And so you, as a director of development, we’re going to turn all this stuff over to you on Monday morning so you can start to call these people and follow up with them intentionally. And know their communication preferences and how they like to be thanked.
Now, imagine you’re a donor at this event we just described. Or, Tucker, perhaps you place yourself at the event that sucked that you attended. We were using it as a case study. What if you wrote that letter, and what if your way to be thanked was words of affirmation? And so three days after the event, the person you wrote a letter to sent you a video of them reading your letter. And said, “Hey, Tucker, you wrote me a letter at the gala, and I just want you to know that this was incredible.” Maybe it’s a little kid, and so it’s the family reading the letter. But imagine that family receiving your letter, embracing your words. Taking their iPhone and saying, “Hey, Tucker, Mr. Donor, you made this dream, this wish, come true for us. We just want to tell you how much we love you.” Boom, send. And it goes to the donor. That donor wants words of affirmation and they just got it, not from you, the executive director, but from the recipients who are ultimately getting the benefits of your organization.
So we can make all of those things happen, but we need to be using our events as a platform, not just to have transactional AV and looking at it as a cost, but coming at it from this lens. How can that audiovisual serve us in a capacity that helps us gather the most important and pertinent information on our donors and new prospective donors? Then it becomes an investment. And there’s ROI there.

Tucker Wannamaker:
That’s great. I love that.

Joey Goone:
I love you.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Oh, man. I want to do events with you. This sounds like so much fun, Joey. And it hits to what all of us want, which is connection. We want relationship. Transaction is scarcity. Relationship is abundance, really. It’s being in a space of joy. It’s been a lot of my own healing over this last year, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, of the more that I can pause and notice that I’m in scarcity, I can get out of that and into relationship. And I have so much more joy there, as a CEO of an organization, so much more joy there. And, also, knowing that not everybody’s going to be in a relationship with THRIVE IMPACT too. That’s been another thing is letting… I’m not going to get everybody, nor does everybody want to get me, and that’s okay. Our medicine’s not for everybody, and that’s okay. And that’s been a really freeing concept for me.
And so, Joey, I’m hearing you, taking some of the lived experience I’ve had, not in events, but in this space of conscious leadership and my own healing, translating into the event space that helps to create a space of abundance and relationship. Which is, ultimately, what we all want anyway, based upon the neuroscience. We want to be in spaces of belonging more than anything. That’s what our brains are wired for. And then we want to get into spaces of significance. And so when we’re in that space of belonging first, and we continue to cultivate belonging, belonging, belonging, belonging, and then create simple ways of significance, AKA giving, as an example, and it’s a natural segue into it from that belonging. I love it. Well, I do want to wrap. This has been a great conversation.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
We nerd out on this all day.

Tucker Wannamaker:
I know.

Joey Goone:
If Tucker’s going to rap, can I at least lay a beat down for you first?

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah, for sure. Dude, I literally was doing… I did this down in Colorado Springs. We’re doing some work with the mayor, actually, down there. And he was doing a Christmas carols thing at a place that he owns down there called The Wild Goose. And I ended up doing beatboxing, just impromptu Christmas carols. It was so fun.

Joey Goone:
That’s amazing.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Love it.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Anyway, hey, real quick to wrap, would love to ask you guys, both of you… I’m a nonprofit leader, maybe I’m a small nonprofit leader. And when I was hearing what you were saying, all I was seeing was dollar signs. And that’s a little intimidating to me around all these vignettes and stories, which I think there is absolutely an ROI to that. But, let’s say, I’m a small community-based nonprofit, or just a bigger nonprofit, either way. What are some practical steps that I can take to get myself into a better space of non-scarcity, of more abundance, I guess, if you will, or possibility? And to take some small steps to be able to start by starting and move forward around our events that I know we need to change. What would you give advice? What would you say to them?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
I think, first, it’s just asking for help, coming to the awareness of asking your donors for help, asking them what they want. And then, like you said, I know when we’re talking about vignettes and all these big things, there’s a dollar sign behind that, of course. And so, again, just if you have those ideas, put them all on… Just write them all down.

Joey Goone:
A wish list.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Yeah, a wish list. You could bill… Budgets are typically made in the spring for the following fiscal year. And so I know how it is, budgets are hard. We want to keep our expenses as low as we can. We want to have as much money go to the mission. Again, make your wish list, put it out there. And talk to an event professional and try to figure out how you can make what you may think is impossible, possible. Because I think it truly is a lot more attainable to at least do something new with your event. Brainstorm. It’s attainable. It truly is. You just have to put the numbers down and think about it. And get advice and be open-minded to it as well.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah. I appreciate that of the concept of who, not how. I don’t need to figure this out. If this is not my strength, if this is not my genius, if this is an energy drain for me, then that’s a bad place to start from. So who are people that, at minimum, can help reframe my thinking? Which you all have been doing in this podcast, which is great. But who might I connect with to help reframe my thinking and even help me, potentially, in the work itself?

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Certainly.

Joey Goone:
Just to piggyback on that, I knew exactly where you were going. Yeah, Brian’s got a white sheet of paper back here he’s holding up, “Corporate sponsorships.” And I’m like, “Yes, that is absolutely it.” So we have an organization that we’re producing an event for on the West Coast. And they said, “Prove to us that you are the most unique and creative event company and we’ll work with you.” And so we came up with this pitch for a sponsor to podcast at their event. So this setup you see here, we’re bringing to their event. A sponsor paid 20 grand to be in the room because they want to interview the people in the room with their podcast. So we underwrote ourselves through a sponsorship. So don’t think that working with a company like us is unattainable. Call us, give us the same challenge that this organization gave us. Let us help you underwrite this so we can help you grow.

Tucker Wannamaker:
That’s great.

Joey Goone:
And think about Blue Ocean, like the red sharks, I think of the… Are you familiar with that book, Blue Ocean Strategy?

Tucker Wannamaker:
I’ve heard of it. I have not read it though.

Joey Goone:
So everyone’s swimming in the water of the Fortune 500 companies. There are 500… I know this because I looked it up because I was curious. There are 583,000 small businesses in Missouri. Missouri is a smaller community. There’s a million people, I think, in St. Louis city, or county proper. How many small businesses between the $1 million to $10 million level are in your community? And how many people are knocking on their doors? Probably not as many as those that are knocking on the Fortune 100 and 500 companies. So think of big, blue ocean. Don’t go where the sharks are swimming in the red, murky water for the organizations that are getting pitched hundreds of times a week. Go to the blue ocean, figure out who the small businesses are, like Utopia, in your community. And see how those companies might want to partner because they have budget too. They’re just not that whole revolving door of just getting asked and asked and asked. So there’s more opportunity there than perhaps you even know exists in your local community.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Yeah, that’s great. I love thinking outside of the box there of how might we do this and invite people into… I love that. What a challenge. Specifically, give us a how might we question. How might we actually produce the event we want, but not be able to have to… We don’t have the budget for it right now, but how might we still do it? And invite the creativity around that. That’s great.

Joey Goone:
Tucker, I would love, on a different day, for you to lead our team through a 5i session because it’s brilliant the way you frame it.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Well, let’s figure out some fun ways to work together. I would love it. I enjoyed that event that you talked about that we did last year. I really enjoyed it. Me on Zoom and you all in person, that was fun to be able to do that.

Joey Goone:
It was a blast. And thank you for having me today.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Well, both of you, I just want to say thank you for being here.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Yes, this was fun.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Thank you for your wisdom and for your depth of care that you do bring into your work. And I know I’ve experienced that already from you, Joey. And, Meagan, I can already tell this matters to you. This is important because our nonprofit leaders need support. And how do we best do that and be in spaces of creativity? So appreciate all the lenses that you brought today. And if you have anything that you’d like to share with us, including an event assessment… I don’t know, that may be a really cool idea. Simple checklist, just a V1, whatever, whatever’s in your head. It doesn’t have to be perfect.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Sure.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Maybe you can do that. We can put it in the show notes and people can access that.

Joey Goone:
Consider it done.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Just to start to think differently about how to do their events so they can set themselves up for success. That’d be great.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
Exactly.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Awesome.

Joey Goone:
Thanks, man.

Meagan Sweeney-Hyde:
This was fun. Thanks, Tucker.

Tucker Wannamaker:
Well, thanks y’all. Yeah.